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f & c's avatar

We all need to understand that the debt brake needs to go. We also need a plan to bring forth the kind of New Green Deal the Biden government tried to implement, then rebuild our ageold infrastructure (and with infrastructure I also mean investment in schools, hospitals and a well-paid-for care work system to free exactly those ppl up to take on more work who cannot find any decent, affordable childcare or any practical help with their elderly parents. This needs to be provided for by the state) to be able to take in more and not less migrants from many professions (the average German age right now is roughly mine - I am 48; hell would it help us to have some young families here) to make our economy whir again (and of course this serves the rest of Germany as well).

We also really need a good European defense concept (I am all for a strong Die Linke but the Greens understand Ukraine's needs and the imperative to stand up against "strongmen" better than most and I am very grateful they do) and with the global shift towards a pressing need for European self-sustainability (and in this increasingly challenging, rapidly changing, global political environment) we do need to invest money in our German army too. Frankly I for one never understood why we abolished the compulsory military service (back then, if you did not wish to join the military forces you could always serve a substitutional social endeavour). I have two older brothers who both served in the Bundeswehr, one even continued whilst finishing his Law studies (both usually vote for the Greens or the SPD) who rightly said that it is important that all of society is a part of the Bundeswehr because otherwise you will get parallel structures full of nazis and the worst kind of stiff conservatives (btw I wish we had more voters of Die Linke, the German left party in our police force - who else could bring about the change needed?! That's just as clear as the fact that more female engineers and craftsmen and more male nurses and teachers are a win/win.)

We cannot abdicate our very own responsibilities anymore... And btw: having watched how the shitshow of the way we Europeans "solved" the Greek debt crisis evolved makes clear that the only way to get to sustainable results for the big whole that is Europe, is to centralise more, to integrate these separate, national entities into a common economy one day... And to know when this goal is to be fulfilled - no pie in the sky thinking anymore. We need to think about a genuine political AND economic integration of the whole Eurozone.

My god this makes my blood boil and it makes me write much too long comments when I should be working on my translations 😉.

I am grateful we have such a mover and shaker (so ein wissenschaftliches "Schwergewicht") such as Adam Tooze on our side. Thanks! Let us hope they will listen and if they don't then we might become a little louder, right?! 😃 I am all in!

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Kouros's avatar

Wouldn't it be cheaper to start serious diplomatic discussions with Russia on a new security architecture in Europe? What is so wrong in having kept Ukraine neutral?

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f & c's avatar

They waged war on Ukraine. I get your point but now the only way out of this is - in my humble opinion - to help the Ukrainians to win this war and through this probably even make the opposition in Russia stronger. Germany was liberated by the allies. I wish there was a way to do something similar for Russia but all we can do is help Ukraine, otherwise we have opened Pandora's box for authoritarians to wage war on whomever they wish. Russia is deeply imperial... I think we should fight imperialism... But I am not in charge and I do not envy those who are right now.

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Kouros's avatar

You are very ill informed, and no, I am not repeating Putin propaganda.

Since 1990s, after the dissolution of the USSR (one needs to remember that Ukraine was constituted in 1922 as a socialist republic, Russia having ceded Novorosyia and parts of western Russia to it (Kharkhov, Sumi, etc.) and receiving Galizia, Transcarpathia, Northern Bucovina, Budjeac, and Snake Island taken from Poland, Hungary, Romania, and Slovakia after WWII, and Crimea in 1954 - these are all historical facts), Ukrainian politicians have slowly moved to a harder and harder nationalistic stance that has not really tried to find a specific quintesence of Ukrainianis, but defined themselves as not Russians. This has ended up in anti Russians as a general sentiment, culture, education for the little ones.

And of course, the US has pumped money in this "nation building" entreprise so much so that they footed the bill for the 2014 coup. It was a coup, it is a historical fact. And Crimea, it was waiting since 1991 to get reunited with Russia.

And Ukrainians were on the path to mistreat all their minorities that were potentially linked with other neighbouring countries - all had to become Ukrainians, leave, or die.

https://hungarytoday.hu/after-hungary-romania-also-criticizes-ukraines-minority-law/

Then in January 2022 US (Blinken) told Russians that of course US will install missiles in Ukraine. And then, as OECD observers reported, in early February 2022, Ukrainians started shelling Donbas and had already ammased troops on the border. Civilians from DOnbas were moved by hundreds of busses away from the separation line. Donbas republics asked then for support, Russia recognized them and then following the Kosovo precedent (sanctioned by ICJ/ICC) invoked Article 51 of UN Charter and did a pre-emptive attack on Ukraine. Legally, the ruskies have crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's. All this nonsense of unprovoked attack and illegal attack will not stand in front of an international pannel of international law experts.

https://www.fletcherforum.org/home/2023/1/12/invoking-the-kosovo-precedent-can-we-dismiss-the-russian-argument

“The choice that we faced in Ukraine — and I'm using the past tense there intentionally — was whether Russia exercised a veto over NATO involvement in Ukraine on the negotiating table or on the battlefield,” said George Beebe, a former director of Russia analysis at the CIA and special adviser on Russia to former Vice President Dick Cheney. “And we elected to make sure that the veto was exercised on the battlefield, hoping that either Putin would stay his hand or that the military operation would fail.”

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/russia-s-ukraine-invasion-may-have-been-preventable-n1290831

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f & c's avatar

Well - I disagree. It is of course your right to believe what you will but you haven't convinced me.

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Kouros's avatar

Do you disagree with the facts presented above? What in particular, and what are your arguments? You are entitled to your own feelings about it, but not to your own, made up facts.

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f & c's avatar

I am sorry but what comes to (my) mind, after I told you the widely agreed facts (and at first I thought with "cheaper" you meant that we should not "waste" lives - because these lives are of course precious and every war costs so many lives on all sides - or money that could save these very lives and rebuild Ukraine instead of having to fight the Russian agression - which I think is sadly necessary to bring down the murderous Putin regime which oppresses its people, keeps them small and robs them of their dignity in every sense) is: don't feed the troll...

And if you are not trolling:

we are clearly wasting both of our time here if we obviously both live in different universes with regards to trusted sources...

For me all this has nothing to do with feelings - and everything with blindness, propaganda or both. No hard feelings but this is Adam Tooze's substack. If you follow his work you will know that we all here only trust the following sources: excellent science and serious journalism. Maybe you should go back to some of his Chartbook articles about the Russian war - or read Anne Applebaum or Timothy Snyder.

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Regula's avatar

This is insane. Pure Russian propaganda. Ukraine is a sovereign nation that can decide what alliances it wants to belong to without needing to ask for permission from Moscow or Washington for that matter.

Yes, its aspirations provoked Russia – in the same way suggestive clothing provokes abusers. Russia cannot tolerate such a culturally close country becoming a successful democracy integrated with the rest of Europe; that puts the entire nihilistic mafia state model of Russia itself in question. If one has any morals, one is behooved to support Ukraine here regardless of who it provokes.

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Kouros's avatar

What I wrote is comming from western sources. I don't need to read RT or Putin or Lavrov's speeches and interviews to find a detailed timeline of events.

Ukraine decided to renounce neutrality adopted and sworn upon when Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine by themselves decided on the dissolution of USSR and pinky promised to never attack eachother, and adopt an anti-Russian policy first. And to do that full blown, they really needed some good partners to give them support: oh, US was there to hold the candle. ANd that candle became hundreds of thousands of candles flickering at the graves of the fallen Ukrainian men in the ever expanding cemeteries.

As for succesful democracies, you should stop smoking what you are smoking.

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Regula's avatar

I’m sorry, but this is like asking if it wouldn’t be cheaper for everyone on the planet if Trump could be brought to serious discussions over combating climate change – and expected to uphold any relevant conventions.

Well yes, obviously. You get one chance to guess what the problem in this brilliant plan is.

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f & c's avatar

Thanks! And thanks for taking the time to write it down, you are of course absolutely right!

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Kouros's avatar

EU leadership (not population at large) is out of their senses and now are pushing for war against Russia because "their security". All the while not giving a shit about how Russians feel about their own security, with NATO coming to their borders and Americans installing missiles in Poland, Romania, and promising to do the same in Ukraine. Yeah, that is the problem and the only solution is to have this insane leadership replaced.

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Regula's avatar

You are completely inundated with Russian disinformation. Pray tell, has NATO ever in any way posed a direct military threat to Russia? If you sincerely believe that leaders like Biden or Scholz, who constantly limited what they were even willing to ship to Ukraine out of fear of a nuclear confrontation had in any way desired to directly attack Russia, you are out of your mind.

I do disagree with the oft-heard take that Ukraine’s freedom (and that of the rest of post-Soviet states) is not provocative towards Moscow though; as I said earlier, of course it’s provocative towards an imperialist power when its erstwhile subjects refuse to be oppressed and are even arming themselves for defense for good measure (hello Cuba and the US’s never-ending sanctions!). I mean really, which Eastern European country should “great” Russia be afraid of – and which one of them would in any way be interested in annexing Russian territory with Russians in them to their own national states? All these countries want is to be left alone by their historic colonizer, and if you can’t see that and side with the clear oppressor you are quite simply morally corrupt.

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Kouros's avatar

Oh, yes, oh yes.

Late in 2021, Biden promised there will be no US missiles installed in Ukraine but in January 2022, Blinken, meeting with Lavrov, insisted that that was in fact not the case and for discussion was only the number of systems installed, not whether they will be installed.

Also, the "defensive" alliance showed its true colours in 1999 with its 80 days bombardemnt of Serbia. And then in the attack against Libya.

Russia was and is afraid of the presence of US troops and installations on these countries: see Poland and Romania with their Tomahawk missiles installed (to defend against Iran!). Interceptors that can be replaced in a matter of hours by nuclear tipped missiles. See the six western bases that host US nuclear bombs ready to be placed on bomber jets and thrown at Russia. Of course, all against the letter and the spirit of the Non Proliferation Treaty. Only when they talk about Iran or North Korean nuclear pursuit, it is all bad and illegal, but if it comes that South Korea, Japan, Germany, Poland, etc, gets nukes, all is perfectly justified.

All this Russian hysteria is like listening to the Germans in 1944 syaing that they have to defend Germany from the Russian attack, totally forgetting that it was them who launched a 3 million men invasion on USSR on June 21, 1941, despite the treaty of non-agression. Like then, the west acts now in the same fashion.

Same way the US feared Russian presence in Cuba.

It is the Russians that want to be left alone but were not given respite because the US was breathing down their necks, in hot pursuit. The situation has reversed and everyone in the west has donned the brown pants, to masked the nervous, uncontrolable shits coming down their legs. Cannot mask the smell.

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Regula's avatar

You claim to stand for the rights of the bullied – yet what do you *really* believe in when you keep justifying naked imperialism, so long as it’s not the West that commits it? I am proudly an anti-imperialist, no matter whether it originates from Moscow or Washington. Who are *you*?

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Mito's avatar

I hold classes to explain current events in Europe. I am going to use your comment-if I may- in one of my upcoming sessions together with Adam Tooze’s article. Needless to say I am in full agreement. ( full disclosure: I am a dual citizen of the Bundesrepublik and the USofA).

I also appreciate Rob steffes comments (below).

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f & c's avatar

I just reacted very impulsively (and probably thus stylistically not at my very best 😉) to Adam Tooze's ever-brilliant analysis. I think everybody who followed the news and knows all about our journey from "sick man of Europe" via "Agenda 2010" and the subsequent growth of low level job sectors (plus overall depressed wages) and the resulting overexaggerated export "miracle" at the expense of our European neighbours to, finally, the shameful, obnoxious spirit of the "Schäuble-Krise" (one does not speak badly of the deceased but well - it was his job and he failed so badly - with the most tragical consequences for whole countries and for our shared so-called values...) know exactly that it is immensely important that Germany leads with cooperative concepts (leading always sounds strange to "us lefties" but the whole political spectrum of Germany should know by now that a country so big has to act responsibly i.e. to walk the walk and talk the talk - the EU is really a gift for all of us but without really accepting the responsibility that comes with it i.e. actually paying for the things we want to share and providing the mutual solidarity to build an economically strong and sustainable zone is paramount)... I am just a humble translator with a long-standing interest in politics (I have to shamefully confess up until now only from the sidelines - like one of the million sofa-football-coaches; and I was so proud of the Greens in the last coalition but the odds were so skewered against them...) but to make this shorter (I could go on and on 😆) if you wish to use this rambunctious rambling of mine as a quote (it is after all just the result of an emotional, political outburst) then I can only slightly blush ☺️ and say: yes, that would be great -😊 to be heard. Thank you very much!!!

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Daniel's avatar

Sounds like the Greens have quite a lot of leverage to "green" the proposed borrow and spend/invest provisions. Let's hope they use it.

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Feral Finster's avatar

The only reason the EU or germany will remove any debt brake is for the War On Russia.

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Rocky's avatar

The pivot that needs to be made is the same one as the old Eisenhower "Defense Highways." Invest in infrastructure for the military. Invest in education for the military. Invest in healthcare for the military. Invest in cultural programs that relieve tensions for the military. It's not hard to talk like this, it just takes a minimal level of political savvy, something surprisingly lacking in leadership across the Western world right now.

Germany and really Europe as a whole seems to think that debt is an optional choice, not a critical requirement in an ever changing world. A business that doesn't invest in itself during times of flux is simply outcompeted. Similarly, a country that does nothing but try to make itself an attractive place to park wealth will surely fall behind countries that are willing to claw money back from the ultrawealthy and sink it into their competitive edge. Also, it's stratospherically naive to think that just because you lower taxes on the wealthiest, that they will in turn reinvest that wealth in any positive way. As we've seen in America, you give the rich an inch and they will invest in corrupting the media landscape, store their money offshore anyways, and gut the country regardless. Oligarchy is a self fulfilling situation.

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eg's avatar

Yeah -- as one wag put it, Germany has chosen to live in a dumpster rather than take out a mortgage ...

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Rob steffes's avatar

Or rather Russia’s war on Europe

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Feral Finster's avatar

Do tell us about the Russian munitions hitting germany.

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Millennialism's avatar

Why limit it to munitions? And not include misinformation, spying, undersea cable mischief, the tomfoolery with gas while NS was still running.

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Feral Finster's avatar

Munitions themselves are an act of war. As was the US' destruction of NS.

Well, plenty of european leaders have made it plain that they seek the destruction and subjugation of Russia.

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Rocky's avatar

What is it that you do for a living that you are able to function every day with your head so far up your own asshole? I mean really crammed in there, not a speck of light coming through.

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Mito's avatar

Ich habe sehr selten einen so guten Artikel gelesen, der die politische Landschaft der Bundesrepublik klar und bündig beschreibt und damit die Probleme des Landes beleuchtet.

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Andy Frew's avatar

Buy weapons for Ukraine and invest in a lot of Green stuff to stop burning oil and gas so Putin stays quiet and maybe finish Trump into the bargain. The Greens must vote for all that.

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Stefano's avatar

Sorry, you are talking what to do BEFORE THE NEW BUNDESTAG takes the power.

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eg's avatar

The real tragedy here is that while there is never money for public investment in socially constructive investment there is ALWAYS money for war, war, war, war ...

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Petr Favorov's avatar

Aren't there any CDU and SPD deputies, outgoing or not, who would object to such maneuvering on principle?

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Kouros's avatar

Speaking of democracy, now do Romania...

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Vincent's avatar

Tacit acknowledgement of MMT coming in europe this decade ?

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Claes Winqvist's avatar

Great article – Thank you !

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Rob steffes's avatar

Sure! Remember the Second World War? After the bloodbath that was the first half of the last century, the victors wisely decided to prevent reoccurrences by proclaiming National borders were inviolate. Good idea, no? An autocracy has brutally invaded a sovereign democracy in Europe. Sound familiar? If the founding principle of the UN Charter is dead, so are we.

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Feral Finster's avatar

Do you know how many national borders have changed since WWII?

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Rob steffes's avatar

You mean by force? Explain to me why you seem to support Putin’s invasion of a sovereign free nation? While you are at it, present any evidence that EU nations have in any way threatened Russia.

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Kouros's avatar

Yes, by force: Serbia's, Sudan's, Morocco's (addition of West Sahara), never mind Israel... All due to US interference.

US has threatened Russia with the promise to install missiles in Ukraine (Blinken to Lavrov in Jan 2022). The only thing left for debate was the number of missiles. What do you think triggered the Russian attack?!

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Feral Finster's avatar

Yes, child, borders have chanbged by force. And have you listened to, for example, the leaders of the various Baltic satrapies calling for the breakup of Russia? For that matter, Macron yesterday insisting Russia be "subdued"?

The idea that Ukraine was free or soverdign is a joke. I suppose you'll tell me that East Germany was sovereign or South Vietnam, or, since we're talking about post WWII changes of borders by force, the "Republic of Northern Cyprus".

Of course, if "free and sovereign" Ukraine really wanted to avoid war, they could have simply complied with Minsk-2, after immediately breaking the original Minsk Accord at American command.

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Rob steffes's avatar

Well finster, you should be able to tell from my picture that I am an adult, just like I can tell from yours that you are a cat. If you think Putin is the good guy trashing his neighbor then I suggest you lay off the catnip.

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Feral Finster's avatar

Thank you for confirming that you have nothing substantive to add.

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Rob steffes's avatar

Meow!

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eg's avatar
Mar 6Edited

By force -- like parts of the former Yugoslavia.

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michele surdi's avatar

atomwaffen?ja,danke

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Rob steffes's avatar

I’m a citizen of the country that developed atomic weapons for use against Nazi Germany. Lucky for the German people Hitler. didn’t come up with that wunderwaffen. Not so lucky for the empire of Japan. Lucky for the rest of us nuclear deterrence has prevented further use of these weapons since. Are you really implying that stopping Russia from starting a full on war in Europe will lead to a nuclear war? I would argue that NOT stopping aggression would make us a lot less secure, especially since abandonment of the UN charter will lead to nuclear proliferation as every smaller country would race to nuke up.

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Sahl's avatar

I hope the Greens are opurtunistic enough to use that chance.

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Stefano's avatar

The numbers for the 2/3 seem wrong. The FDP got not eben the 5%

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California Codger's avatar

Although Tooze seems to imply that there is something undemocratic about jamming the changes to the debt brake through a lame duck parliament, a recent poll shows that 55 percent of Germans think the debt brake should be reformed to allow Berlin to raise more debt to finance higher investment spending or be cancelled all together, and only 41 percent want to keep the debt brake unchanged.

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